In 2016 I moderated this conversation with writers Helen Garner (This House of Grief) and Anne Manne (Narcissism) . They  have written on some of the darkest aspects of the human experience: murder, violence against children, and the contemporary culture of narcissism. In conversation with me for La Trobe University’s Ideas and Society program, they discuss why they are drawn to these topics and their different ways of writing about them. I hope you find it as compelling and informative as I did. It was recorded at the State Library of Victoria on 28th April, 2016.